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Cake day: June 16th, 2023

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  • kromem@lemmy.worldtoCool Guides@lemmy.caA cool guide to Epicurean paradox
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    2 months ago

    Kind of falls apart if rejecting the idea of objective good and evil and interpreting the parable of the fruit of knowledge in Eden as the inheritance of a relative knowledge of good and evil for oneself which inherently makes any shared consensus utopia an impossibility.

    In general, we have very bizarre constraints on what we imagine for the divine, such as it always being a dominant personality.

    Is God allowed to be a sub? Where’s the world religion built around that idea?

    What about the notion that the variety of life is not a test for us to pass/fail, but more like a Rorsarch test where it allows us to determine for ourselves what is good or not?

    Yes, antiquated inflexible ideas don’t hold up well to scrutiny. But adopting those as the only idea to contrast with equally inflexible consideration just seems like a waste of time for everyone involved, no?






  • I had a teacher that worked for the publisher and talked about how they’d have a series of responses for people who wrote in for the part of the book where the author says he wrote his own fanfiction scene and to write in if you wanted it.

    Like maybe the first time you write in they’d respond that they couldn’t provide it because they were fighting the Morgenstern estate over IP release to provide the material, etc.

    So people never would get the pages, but could have gotten a number of different replies furthering the illusion.







  • You probably already know about it, you might just not know that you know about it.

    The core of the Gospel of Thomas is pretty clearly a response to Lucretius which then used Platonist concepts of the demiurge and eikons (essentially archetypes) to build on top of the Epicurean foundations regarding a belief in a physical body that would die and a mind/soul that would die with it.

    You can see how the Naassenes by the 4th century are still interpreting the seeds parables using the language of Lucretius’s indivisible seeds (writing in Latin he used ‘seed’ in place of the Greek atomos), while at the same time talking about the original man creating the son of man and then likening their ontological beliefs to the Phrygian mysteries around spontaneous first beings described as coming to exist like a tumor.

    Saying 29 of Thomas even straight up calls the notion of the spirit arising from flesh (Lucretius’s evolution) to be a greater wonder than flesh arising from spirit (intelligent design) before criticizing the notion of the dependence of the spirit on the physical body in either.

    If you want to look into this more, I recommend reading the following texts in parallel with each other:

    • Lucretius, De Rerum Natura (50 BCE)
    • Unknown, Gospel of Thomas (~50 to ~350 CE)
    • Pseudo-Hippolytus, Refutations of all Heresies book 5 (3rd century CE)

    Adding Lucretius into the mix as you look at the other two works will be the biggest “ah ha” you could probably have when interpreting Thomas and remnant beliefs preserved among the Naassenes. In particular, pay close attention to sayings 7, 8, 9 for a surprise, noting that 8 is the only saying after another beginning with a conjunction and that in both the parallel metaphors of Habakkuk 1 and Matthew 13 a human is a fish and not the fisherman.



  • since atheist believes that gods don’t exist

    This is a common misconception.

    Theist is someone who believes God(s) exist(s).

    An atheist is someone who does not believe God exists. They don’t need to have a positive belief of nonexistence of God.

    Much like how a gnostic is someone who believes there is knowledge of the topic.

    And an agnostic is someone who believes either they don’t have that knowledge or that the knowledge doesn’t exist.

    So you could be an agnostic atheist (“I don’t know and I don’t believe either way in the absence of knowledge”) or an agnostic atheist (“I don’t know but I believe anyways”) or a gnostic atheist (“I know that they don’t and because I know I don’t believe”) or a gnostic theist (“I know they do and I believe because I know”).

    Epicurus would have been an Agnostic atheist if we were categorizing. They ended up right about so much because they were so committed to not ruling anything out. They even propose that there might be different rules for different versions of parallel universes (they thought both time and matter were infinite so there were infinite worlds). It’s entirely plausible he would have argued for both the existence and nonexistence of gods in different variations of existence given how committed they were to this notion of not ruling anything out.

    But it’s pretty clear from the collection of his beliefs that the notion of a god as either creator or overseer of this universe was not actively believed in outside of the lip service that essentially “yeah, sure, there’s gods in between the fabric of existence, but not in it.”

    The Epicurean philosophy itself was very focused on the idea that the very notion of gods was making everyone sick, and that they offered their ‘cure’ for people to stop giving a crap about what gods might think or do.


  • kromem@lemmy.worldtoCool Guides@lemmy.caA cool guide to Epicurean Paradox
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    4 months ago

    You’re getting too caught up in one particular concept of ‘God’ (why is it a ‘he’ even?).

    Epicurus wasn’t Christian. Jesus doesn’t even come along until centuries later.

    There are theological configurations in antiquity very different from the OT/NT depictions of divinity which still have a ‘good’ deity, but where it is much harder to dispute using the paradox.

    For example, there was a Christian apocryphal sect that claimed there was an original humanity evolved (Epicurus’s less talked about contribution to thinking in antiquity) from chaos which preceded and brought about God before dying, and that we’re the recreations of that original humanity in the archetypes of the originals, but with the additional unconditional capacity to continue on after death (their concept of this God is effectively all powerful relative to what it creates but not what came before it).

    If we consider a God who is bringing back an extinct species by recreating their environment and giving them the ability to self-define and self-determine, would it be more ethical to whitewash history such that the poor and downtrodden are unrepresented in the sample or to accurately recreate the chaotic and sometimes awful conditions of reality such that even the unfortunate have access to an afterlife and it is not simply granted to the privileged?

    The Epicurian paradox is effective for the OT/NT concepts of God with absolute mortality and a narcissistic streak, and for Greek deities viewed as a collective, and a number of other notions of the divine.

    But it’s not quite as broadly applicable as it is often characterized, especially when dealing with traditions structured around relative mortalities and unconditionally accepted self-determination as the point of existence.


  • kromem@lemmy.worldtoCool Guides@lemmy.caA cool guide to Epicurean Paradox
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    4 months ago

    Really more an atheist.

    Don’t forget that not long before him Socrates was murdered by the state on the charge of impiety.

    Plato in Timeaus refuses to even entertain a rejection of intelligent design “because it’s impious.”

    By the time of Lucretius, Epicureanism is very much rejecting intelligent design but does so while acknowledging the existence of the gods, despite having effectively completely removed them from the picture.

    It may have been too dangerous to outright say what was on their minds, but the Epicurean cosmology does not depend on the existence of gods at all, and you even see things like eventually Epicurus’s name becoming synonymous with atheism in Judea.

    He is probably best described as a closeted atheist at a time when being one openly was still too dangerous.